Development Tools & IDE's

(full disclosure: I may repost this on the haxe google group list as well as I think there are some people here who are not there, and vice versa) Alright guys. We are here because we recognize haXe presents a massive opportunity to build truly cross-p…

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Development Tools & IDE's

crayfellow

crayfellow
Total Posts: 204
Joined: November 28, 2011

(full disclosure: I may repost this on the haxe google group list as well as I think there are some people here who are not there, and vice versa)

Alright guys. We are here because we recognize haXe presents a massive opportunity to build truly cross-platform applications without worrying about depending on proprietary plugins or having to learn a completely new language. I only have one big problem.

We have lots of developers in our organization who are uncomfortable with the command line. I don't consider these folks lesser, just different, but because of this these developers will never be able to transition to haXe. These are folks who are accustomed to working hand-in-hand with designers who build interfaces in Flash that are then built out using AS3 in FlashDevelop or Flash Builder. As we know this is a very clean, smooth workflow!

I hear all the time from people just discovering haXe that they cannot believe more people aren't aware of it. I believe poor tools support is the reason it has not been more widely adopted, because I think there are tons of developers who would never consider it until we fix this problem.

Now, I know FlashDevelop has haXe support and Eclipse has eclihx and FDT for Linux and Mac users. However, the real power of haXe for developers coming from Flash lies in libraries and frameworks like NME and jeash. FlashDevelop and eclihx/FDT have no knowledge of NMML files, and if you are building an NME project you need to maintain both NMML and hxml project files or else the intellisense doesn't work. I have personally found the code completion incredibly slow or doesn't work most of the time in eclihx/FDT and it has no provisions for even the simplest time savers offered by Flash Builder such as automatic import statements. I have heard rumblings that the FDT folks are working on NME/NMML support but it is obvious there is a ton of work left to be done. The launchers assume a Flex SDK exists, which is completely unnecessary and suggestive that real FDT haXe workflow is a LONG way off.

Because I have no issue with the command line, and even prefer it (like a lot of you I bet!) this has not been a deal breaker for me and I have fully adopted haXe. Heck, I would happily use vi with no code completion or anything and still be a happy camper targeting iOS, Android, WebOS, Flash, and HTML5. For the many otherwise excellent developers who simply work better in a GUI IDE environment, we're sort of leaving them cold.

Does anyone else feel the same that this is sort of a blocking issue? If so, I'd love to work with you in whatever capacity I can to fix it. If we can make haXe viable for our scores of developers, it would be THE solution to our clients' questions about the future of Flash. If I cannot give them halfway decent tools and they need to rely on the command line, they will have to end up looking elsewhere and I feel the result will be substandard in the end (like being stuck in JavaScript with no provision for native mobile). It's just a reality that workflow and tools support is crucial for the majority of developers!

I strongly believe this is the elephant in the room, and THE #1 reason haXe has not absolutely exploded in popularity. I think if this can be solved, certain key factions in the industry will take on haXe and top-shelf contributions will be flowing in moving us all forward. I'm willing to do whatever I can to help make this happen, so if you can help please let the group know so we can get started!

Cheers,
Patrick

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Posted on January 06, 2012 at 12:03 PM

Vlad

Vlad
Total Posts: 22
Joined: December 28, 2011

Re: Development Tools & IDE's

I prefer to avoid command line tools even if I'm a tech savy guy used to servers and all that mambo-jambo. It just makes my work easier, that's it. So all in all I agree with you. I use Flash Develop and I believe that a couple of add-ons would solve the vast majority of the problems and greatly improve the usability of haXe, NME, etc.

Just look at Flash Develop... Why is it a successful IDE? Because it allowed people that couldn't handle flex and pure as3 to get their a project quickly going and it smoothed the learning curve. haXe is a even a bigger beast. If some IDE offered a large support to it, it would become huge.

Posted on January 06, 2012 at 12:39 PM

crayfellow

crayfellow
Total Posts: 204
Joined: November 28, 2011

Re: Development Tools & IDE's

yup. and to be clear, I in no way wish to minimize the great work which has already been done, such as Joshua's work with the installers, FDT, and FlashDevelop. It's just frustrating to see something with such massive potential knowing the majority of developers I know will completely ignore it or try it and HATE it because the tools are relatively unusable in comparison with others they might consider instead.

This is especially apparent in the Mac/Linux world. haXe support in FDT is clearly just a prototype to feel out interest. There are a few tickets on their issue tracker I have voted up and am watching, you may wish to do the same:
http://bugs.powerflasher.com/jira/browse/FDT-2389...
http://bugs.powerflasher.com/jira/browse/FDT-2126...

In the end they're not going to be able to do it alone, so I hope together we can get a real, professional, GUI-based workflow going for all: Mac, Windows, and Linux.

Posted on January 06, 2012 at 12:47 PM

Vlad

Vlad
Total Posts: 22
Joined: December 28, 2011

Re: Development Tools & IDE's

To be honest I don't know if I have the coding skills to tackle something like FD but how could I be of assistance.

Posted on January 06, 2012 at 1:24 PM

crayfellow

crayfellow
Total Posts: 204
Joined: November 28, 2011

Re: Development Tools & IDE's

I think just as useful would be spreading the word, looking for others to lend a hand, stuff like that? I think with these brilliant open source projects we have all these awesome things going on, but lots of people are going off of the assumption the boilerplate stuff, like tools support, is just getting done and will one day materialize. It seems like for haXe hardly anyone is looking at the tools, so if we don't get the word out it might never happen. Thanks!

Posted on January 06, 2012 at 1:29 PM

AdamHarte

AdamHarte
Total Posts: 17
Joined: November 03, 2011

Re: Development Tools & IDE's

crayfellow, I know you don't mean to minimize the great work which has already been done, and I get what you are saying, but have you actually looked at what has been done lately with FlashDevelop for NME? And paired with the NME installer Joshua has been working on, it has come a long way.

Do you think this is the track it should be heading down?

Posted on January 06, 2012 at 5:55 PM

crayfellow

crayfellow
Total Posts: 204
Joined: November 28, 2011

Re: Development Tools & IDE's

I do understand FlashDevelop is the "best of breed" haXe environment currently. My primary development environment is a Mac, so a lot of my experience is with Eclipse via the eclihx plugin and FDT. I also watched a number of very smart Flash developers very recently try to get their Windows machines going with FlashDevelop and NME and many were quite frustrated, to the point that the excitement of the potential of this technology was sadly lost in the shuffle. Direct experience with FDT and FlashDevelop is precisely what inspired this thread, because it would be a shame if base-level setup frustration prevented the pervasive adoption I know haXe/NME deserves. I intend neither to minimize the work thus far nor minimize the magnitude of this challenge, on the contrary. It is because the work thus far is so impressive and worthy that I believe this is necessary.

The debugging capabilities in FlashDevelop are definitely headed in the right direction, that is for sure. A graphical interface for handling the NMML creation and editing would be super cool. Aside from that, I have only seen the haXe-specific stuff FlashDevelop does so I'd welcome an education on what else is being done!

I don't mean to play evangelist in any way, either, but many developers prefer to work on Mac or Linux. Assuming FlashDevelop is really well on its way to being not only a great haXe IDE but also well suited to NME and easy enough to do everything in the GUI, maybe what we really need is to find a way to cover non-Windows folks?

So, I'd love to hear more about NME support in FlashDevelop, and let me know if you have thoughts on strategies for Mac and Linux developers.

Posted on January 06, 2012 at 6:47 PM